# Product Management Theater | Marty Cagan  ## Metadata - Author: [[Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career]] - Full Title: Product Management Theater | Marty Cagan - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/6784ebbb-fd29-442e-b606-0b3cb7eb1874 ## Highlights - Episode AI notes 1. Smaller teams are more effective compared to large teams with excessive roles such as agile coaches and product owners, hinting at the need for streamlining roles in organizations. 2. Remote work has negatively impacted both velocity and innovation within teams, leading to slower processes and reduced levels of innovation compared to the past. 3. Overstaffing with various roles like agile coaches, scrum masters, and project managers is hindering progress and leading to inefficiencies in many companies. 4. Product managers are perceived differently in delivery vs. feature teams, with a focus on delivering tangible outcomes in product teams. 5. The key focus for CEOs and CFOs should be on 'time to money' rather than 'time to market' to ensure successful outcomes, emphasizing the role of product managers in driving valuable solutions. 6. Real product managers focus on developing essential skills in value and viability to contribute meaningfully at a product management level. 7. Product managers play a crucial role in understanding users, analyzing data, and handling various aspects like compliance, sales, marketing, and financial costs. 8. Distinguishing between project management and product management is crucial, highlighting the distinct functions of each role in software development. 9. Product communities may offer valuable insights, but it's important to distinguish between well-meaning advice and trusted resources for quality guidance. 10. Individuals need to develop critical thinking skills, research their career decisions, and break out of corporate bubbles to stay relevant in the evolving job market. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/43f653e3-3212-4570-b670-3d7a198e83e1)) - Focus on Small Teams and Roles Summary: The advice against learning programming from a top CEO creates uncertainty and disruption in companies. Smaller teams are found to produce better results compared to large teams with excessive roles such as agile coaches and product owners, hinting at the need for streamlining roles in organizations. Transcript: Speaker 1 First of all, I'm not even sure that's good advice, but the fact that the CEO of one of the most amazing companies in the world is saying, don't learn programming. That's disruptive. And so this at a minimum, it creates uncertainty among the leaders in the companies at a minimum. But honestly, I think it there's very real impact. I'm convinced to that I just don't know the real time horizon. I've got a long history of being overly optimistic. Like, I think things are going to happen sooner than they really do. So I don't know when they'll really happen, but that's a big one. Here's another one that I think is not talked nearly enough about. And that is in a lot of companies, especially outside of Silicon Valley, team size has just gotten out of hand. It's just gotten, I go into some companies and honestly, I can't believe all the ridiculous roles that they have. And I'll go into that more if you want later. But the no question that people realize that smaller teams can often produce more and better results. How many of your guests have said as much? I've heard it from many of them. It's reducing the size of the organization ironically can get you a lot more in terms of results. So there's this general appreciation that maybe we overdid it here with all of these roles. And of course, I'm talking about agile coaches and product owners and product ops and business analysts and all these assistant product manager types. So we'll go into that if you want, but it's gotten out of hand at a lot of companies. ([Time 0:13:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/18b810f2-b827-498b-bb82-51ff892eed78)) - Challenges with Remote Employees and Team Innovation Summary: The increasing presence of various roles like agile coaches, product owners, product ops, and business analysts has become overwhelming in many companies. Despite the widespread adoption of remote work, it has negatively impacted both velocity and innovation within teams. While a return to fully co-located teams seems unlikely, the struggle with innovation and velocity is evident. Companies are finding that things are moving slower, and the level of innovation has decreased compared to the past. This challenge is even more pronounced outside the Silicon Valley environment, where investments in additional roles have not necessarily translated into improved innovation and velocity. Transcript: Speaker 1 And of course, I'm talking about agile coaches and product owners and product ops and business analysts and all these assistant product manager types. So we'll go into that if you want, but it's gotten out of hand at a lot of companies. And then the one that I really probably shouldn't bring up just because it's become a religious topic almost. I know it's a super sensitive topic for people, but the reality is with remote employees, both velocity and innovation have taken a real hit. Now, we can talk about don't get me wrong. We aren't I don't think we're ever going to go back to the days of big companies having almost all co located teams. But there is no question. I mean, I work with a lot of them. They are all struggling with innovation and velocity. Things go slower. And they don't really do that level of innovation that they used to do. And so we these are big factors. These are sort of macro factors that are going on. And then on top of that, if you get outside of sort of the Silicon Valley bubble, it's kind of even worse because they have been investing at these companies, especially the big companies In all these extra roles. ([Time 0:15:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f7556ceb-03c1-4ac3-afbc-d684f79fc720)) - Struggling with Innovation and Velocity Summary: Many companies are facing challenges with innovation and velocity, experiencing slower processes and reduced levels of innovation compared to the past. This issue is exacerbated by the proliferation of various additional roles within companies, such as agile coaches, scrum masters, project managers, and assistants to product people, which further hinders progress and innovation. Transcript: Speaker 1 I mean, I work with a lot of them. They are all struggling with innovation and velocity. Things go slower. And they don't really do that level of innovation that they used to do. And so we these are big factors. These are sort of macro factors that are going on. And then on top of that, if you get outside of sort of the Silicon Valley bubble, it's kind of even worse because they have been investing at these companies, especially the big companies In all these extra roles. You know, I mentioned agile coaches, but like scrum masters and every flavor of project manager, you could dream up there everywhere and every kind of assistant to product people. ([Time 0:15:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b35b074a-07f6-4447-89d7-14eb0c71157c)) - Innovation Struggle Amidst Overstaffing Summary: Companies are facing challenges in innovation and velocity due to factors like slow decision-making processes, reduced innovation levels, and overstaffing with various roles including agile coaches, scrum masters, project managers, and assistants to product people. This overstaffing, particularly in big companies, is hindering progress and leading to inefficiencies, as highlighted by the term 'Epic Waste' coined by the speaker a decade ago. Transcript: Speaker 1 I mean, I work with a lot of them. They are all struggling with innovation and velocity. Things go slower. And they don't really do that level of innovation that they used to do. And so we these are big factors. These are sort of macro factors that are going on. And then on top of that, if you get outside of sort of the Silicon Valley bubble, it's kind of even worse because they have been investing at these companies, especially the big companies In all these extra roles. You know, I mentioned agile coaches, but like scrum masters and every flavor of project manager, you could dream up there everywhere and every kind of assistant to product people. It's just, I think it's gotten crazy. I've been in fact, I wrote an article a long time ago, something like a decade ago that was very popular at the time called Epic Waste. ([Time 0:15:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1d7a87f1-ed40-476e-a1f0-f448546386bf)) - Rethinking the Need for Product Managers in Feature Teams Summary: The rising trend of disliking Product Managers (PMs) in many companies stems from hiring individuals who are not effective at the job. This experience leads to the perception that PMs are unnecessary in feature teams because they often overlap with project management roles. Engineers and designers in these teams often feel they can handle the responsibilities themselves and prefer not to work with PMs who they perceive as trying to be the boss without adding significant value. Transcript: Speaker 2 I think there's just this broader trend of people just really dislike PMs in a lot of places. There's this just trend of, I don't want PMs at my company, I don't want PMs at my starter for a long time. We're gonna have no PMs like this general idea. And I think you're saying a lot of this comes from many people who are hired as product managers that are not good at the job. And people's experience with PMs is those sorts of people. Speaker 1 I think it's a different really answer. What I'm and I haven't gone into this, but you probably those those examples with very few exceptions. And I hear it all the time, almost every day, what you're describing, their feature teams. And the truth is, and this I've been saying this for a long time, the truth is they don't need PMs in a feature team. They don't because it's a project management role, any. And they already have plenty of people who can cover that. And furthermore, a lot of times the engineers or the designers say, you know, we'd rather do it ourselves than deal with this person that's got this, you know, complex and trying to be The boss of everybody. And they really don't contribute anything. So that's what's really going on in my view. ([Time 0:18:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d62e2c10-7294-4101-ac95-e536c263b601)) - Value Perception of Product Managers in Delivery vs Feature Teams Summary: In a delivery team, product managers are seen as overpaid and not bringing significant value to the team, leading to a lack of respect for their role. On the contrary, in a real product team, the role of a product manager is viewed differently, with a focus on defining clear job responsibilities that deliver tangible outcomes rather than vague facilitation and communication tasks. Transcript: Speaker 1 They are either a delivery team or a feature team, usually a feature team in this model. And I don't blame those people for not finding value in the product manager. They are just not bringing that value. They do bring a little value in fairness. But that's very brutal, but they're dramatically overpaid for the value they provide. Now, on the other hand, in a real product team, that's a very different job. And I don't see that. In fact, I consider that complaint you're raising as the biggest clue that they are probably are feature team. And then I'll go ask them how they're working and what that person. And then of course, the first thing I asked the product managers, how do you define your job? And I bet you've heard 100 variations of the sort of mealy mouth squishy. I kind of facilitate this and I do some communication and I heard the cats. And I'm listening to that going, man, I would not want to try to defend that job to the CEO. ([Time 0:19:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cd9c3626-fc80-4fa7-9802-68ca0a3c9dbb)) - Distinguishing between Feature Team and Product Team Summary: The key difference lies in the job definition - in a feature team, the focus is on output and developing specific features according to a roadmap, while in a product team, there is a broader role involving understanding the market needs, defining the job clearly, and being accountable to the overall product success. Transcript: Speaker 1 But that's very brutal, but they're dramatically overpaid for the value they provide. Now, on the other hand, in a real product team, that's a very different job. And I don't see that. In fact, I consider that complaint you're raising as the biggest clue that they are probably are feature team. And then I'll go ask them how they're working and what that person. And then of course, the first thing I asked the product managers, how do you define your job? And I bet you've heard 100 variations of the sort of mealy mouth squishy. I kind of facilitate this and I do some communication and I heard the cats. And I'm listening to that going, man, I would not want to try to defend that job to the CEO. Speaker 2 I know you talk about feature teams and product teams a lot. I imagine people still aren't 100% sure of exactly what you mean when you say that. So let's spend a little time on just what does it look like when you're on a feature team feature factory versus an empowered product team. Yeah. Speaker 1 Well, there's a lot of clues for sure. Some of the easiest is on a feature team, you're basically given a roadmap of output. I mean, that's the key is output. In other words, they're features or projects that usually it could have come from an executive could have come from a big pocket customer could have come from wherever, but it's a bunch Of features. And you're being asked to design literally, you're being asked to design, build, test, deploy that feature. ([Time 0:19:57](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fc56f916-d73b-46e5-9b87-656960f1bc36)) - Outcome vs. Output: Feature Team vs. Product Team Summary: A feature team focuses on delivering a set roadmap of features or projects given by executives, customers, or stakeholders. The team is tasked with designing, building, testing, and deploying these features within specified timelines. Their main goal is to deliver output. Conversely, an empowered product team is presented with problems to solve, either customer-related or business-related. Instead of a predetermined roadmap of features, they tackle hard problems with the aim of solving the issue at hand. The success criteria for a product team is not just shipping the product but ensuring that the solution addresses the problem effectively, emphasizing the difference between delivering output and delivering outcomes. Transcript: Speaker 2 I know you talk about feature teams and product teams a lot. I imagine people still aren't 100% sure of exactly what you mean when you say that. So let's spend a little time on just what does it look like when you're on a feature team feature factory versus an empowered product team. Yeah. Speaker 1 Well, there's a lot of clues for sure. Some of the easiest is on a feature team, you're basically given a roadmap of output. I mean, that's the key is output. In other words, they're features or projects that usually it could have come from an executive could have come from a big pocket customer could have come from wherever, but it's a bunch Of features. And you're being asked to design literally, you're being asked to design, build, test, deploy that feature. You're usually given dates and tide frames as well, but that's a feature team you deliver. And don't get me wrong, that's still work. Speaker 3 But that's output. Speaker 1 It is a lot easier to deliver output than it is to deliver outcomes. And a product team, an empowered product team, instead of being given that roadmap of features, they're given problems to solve. Now, their customer problems or their business problems are both, but they're given a problem to solve. Usually one or two, a quarter on top of, of course, to keep the lights on kind of work that everybody does. But they're given hard problems to solve. And the measure is not ship the damn thing. The measure is it solves the problem. ([Time 0:20:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1cd443fc-cbde-41ca-a357-6051ea860812)) - Time to Money Over Time to Market Summary: Framing the importance of delivering value as 'time to money' rather than 'time to market' resonates well with CEOs and CFOs. Achieving time to market is well-known, but the real challenge lies in achieving time to money, which involves creating valuable and viable solutions. This is where a product manager's role becomes crucial, as they bring a unique set of skills in understanding customers and business deeply, beyond what engineers and designers offer. Product managers are essential for solving complex problems and delivering outcomes that are not only feasible and usable but also valuable and viable. Transcript: Speaker 1 You get points for delivering the value. A lot of the CEOs and CFOs I talked to, they resonate best when I frame it as it's about time to money more than time to market. We know how to do time to market. If you insist on time to market, we know how to do that. The techniques are well known. The harder part is time to money. And I know that's what they care about. And that's harder. And that's what a product team really does. It's only when you sign up for an outcome that you have the needs for a product manager in the sense that I would say in the Silicon Valley sense, that's when you need a product manager. Because if you've been asked to solve these problems, that means you have to come up with a solution that's not only usable and feasible, which is what a feature team does, but is also Valuable and viable. And that means you need a different set of skills that your engineers and your designers almost never have. That's not a knock on them. Those are very different skill sets. So now you need this person who understands the customers and understands the business deeply. That's where the product manager role came from. That's what they still at a good product company are responsible for. So that's a very different job. ([Time 0:22:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fed5df33-18cc-40bf-a5b5-74a4ba5e45a5)) - Focus on Time to Money for Product Value Summary: The key focus for CEOs and CFOs should be on 'time to money' rather than 'time to market' when it comes to product value. While time to market is well-known and achievable, time to money is more challenging and crucial for the business. A successful product team aims to deliver outcomes that are not only usable and feasible like a feature team but also valuable and viable, requiring a unique skill set possessed by product managers. Product managers play a vital role in understanding customer needs, business objectives, and driving valuable solutions, distinct from the roles of engineers and designers. Therefore, a dedicated product manager is essential in a good product company to ensure successful outcomes, focusing on customer understanding and business alignment rather than interfering in the day-to-day tasks of designers and developers. Transcript: Speaker 1 You get points for delivering the value. A lot of the CEOs and CFOs I talked to, they resonate best when I frame it as it's about time to money more than time to market. We know how to do time to market. If you insist on time to market, we know how to do that. The techniques are well known. The harder part is time to money. And I know that's what they care about. And that's harder. And that's what a product team really does. It's only when you sign up for an outcome that you have the needs for a product manager in the sense that I would say in the Silicon Valley sense, that's when you need a product manager. Because if you've been asked to solve these problems, that means you have to come up with a solution that's not only usable and feasible, which is what a feature team does, but is also Valuable and viable. And that means you need a different set of skills that your engineers and your designers almost never have. That's not a knock on them. Those are very different skill sets. So now you need this person who understands the customers and understands the business deeply. That's where the product manager role came from. That's what they still at a good product company are responsible for. So that's a very different job. It's also if you have a person playing that kind of product manager, it is very unlikely they've got time on their hands to get in the face of the designer and start wireframing for them, First start irritating the developers. They've got their own work to do. ([Time 0:22:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b0b35961-eb1a-488f-8128-9c984c697d4b)) - Developing Skills for Real Product Managers Summary: Real product managers focus on developing essential skills such as value and viability, as opposed to those who merely hold the title without performing the role effectively. It is critical for individuals to raise their game by acquiring the necessary skills to contribute meaningfully at a product management level. The primary responsibility of a product manager lies in delivering value and viability, akin to an engineer's focus on feasibility. A true product manager is a creator, not just a facilitator, emphasizing the importance of actively shaping product outcomes rather than passively coordinating activities. Transcript: Speaker 2 And this is essentially the theater you're describing, that people that aren't real product managers doing product management activities can just talk about what that looks like. Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, the biggest example of that is that they are, they carry this title product manager because the whole world largely thanks to you knows it's cool. But they're not doing any of the role and they don't have any of the skills. Now, of course, what really bothers me is it's not that hard if they are motivated. It's not that hard for them to develop the skills. And that's what I talk to people about. You can raise your game so that you actually can contribute at this level. That's what you should do for your own career. But by the way, and not accidentally, that's what your company needs you to do. Speaker 2 And for people that are listening to this wondering, what are these skills that I need to build to be a real product manager? I think you often say it's mostly focus on value and viability. Speaker 1 And that's where a lot of this value and viability is what you're responsible for as a product manager, just like an engineer is responsible for feasibility. It has to be a solution that can be built and delivered. But a product manager is responsible for value and viability. Another way I like to frame this is on a real empowered product team. Product manager is a creator, not a facilitator. I always cringe when somebody tells me, Oh, my job is to say why. ([Time 0:24:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c561a8de-5d0f-42c5-a9c4-f429bbedf9a2)) - Focus on Value and Viability in Product Management Summary: The key skills needed to excel as a product manager are centred around focusing on value and viability of the product. Unlike engineers who focus on feasibility, a product manager's responsibility lies in creating value and ensuring the viability of the product. They are creators, not just facilitators, and work closely with design and engineering teams to come up with solutions. In order to excel in this role, a product manager must become an expert on users and customers. Transcript: Speaker 2 And for people that are listening to this wondering, what are these skills that I need to build to be a real product manager? I think you often say it's mostly focus on value and viability. Speaker 1 And that's where a lot of this value and viability is what you're responsible for as a product manager, just like an engineer is responsible for feasibility. It has to be a solution that can be built and delivered. But a product manager is responsible for value and viability. Another way I like to frame this is on a real empowered product team. Product manager is a creator, not a facilitator. I always cringe when somebody tells me, Oh, my job is to say why. And I'm like, well, what do you do for the rest of the week, besides the 10 minutes it takes you to say why, you know, it's like ridiculous. People think that. But you know what, on a feature team, when you're scrounging around for some justification of your job, it's not that big a surprise. But no, the why actually comes from the product strategy. Anyway, you don't even do the why. A product manager is a creator. And so there's this side by side creation with design and engineering to come up with these solutions. Now, in order to do your job and represent value and viability, there are some real skills that are involved. First of all, you have to really become an expert on your users and customers. ([Time 0:24:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6ab0ac69-616c-4a46-b07d-bc90c848ee04)) - Product Manager is the Expert on Customers and Data Summary: A product manager plays a crucial role in understanding users and customers deeply by visiting them in person to gain insights. They also need to analyze data regarding product usage and purchasing patterns to represent value and viability. Additionally, product managers handle compliance, sales, marketing, financial costs, monetization, and legal constraints for the team, ensuring informed decision-making and strategy implementation. Transcript: Speaker 1 But no, the why actually comes from the product strategy. Anyway, you don't even do the why. A product manager is a creator. And so there's this side by side creation with design and engineering to come up with these solutions. Now, in order to do your job and represent value and viability, there are some real skills that are involved. First of all, you have to really become an expert on your users and customers. I know that I was not allowed to take product manager role until I had visited 30 customers in person, 15 in the US 15 in Europe. That was just the person who was coaching me. That was their role. And all I know is those 30 customers changed my life. Because I thought I knew our customers and I really didn't. Another is, you know, you're that supposed to be the expert on the data. How is our product being used? How is that usage changing over time? How is it being purchased? So that's big. Another big one is you are the person on the team that represents the compliance issues, the sales issues, the marketing issues, the financial cost issues, the monetization issues, Go to market in general. This is all legal constraints. This is all the product manager. Just think, if you don't have this person on the team and you want to empower this team to make decisions, what are you going to do? You're just going to make it up. ([Time 0:25:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/38fb96cf-5767-4c71-9c79-2261517f7d3b)) - The role of a product manager is multi-faceted Summary: A product manager should be the expert on product data, monitoring usage trends, and changes over time. They represent compliance, sales, marketing, financial, and go-to-market issues within the team. Without this role, decisions may be ad hoc or made through extensive stakeholder meetings, leading to design by committee. Product managers must possess a deep understanding of the market and cannot merely focus on managing backlogs in tools like JIRA. Transcript: Speaker 1 Another is, you know, you're that supposed to be the expert on the data. How is our product being used? How is that usage changing over time? How is it being purchased? So that's big. Another big one is you are the person on the team that represents the compliance issues, the sales issues, the marketing issues, the financial cost issues, the monetization issues, Go to market in general. This is all legal constraints. This is all the product manager. Just think, if you don't have this person on the team and you want to empower this team to make decisions, what are you going to do? You're just going to make it up. Or what they usually do is they call meetings with 20 stakeholders all in a room to try to decide these things. And now you've reverted to design by committee. So no, the product manager needs to bring this knowledge. They also need to bring deep understanding of the market. So this is when I describe these things to a typical product owner, they're like, I'm not even we're on different planets. What they learned in a CSBO or a PSBO class was how to manage a backlog in JIRA, which to me is very analogous to learning how to operate, you know, Google Docs. Of course, that's not the job. That's something we do every day, but it's not the job. ([Time 0:26:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/673de6dd-2ae5-45a3-aa9e-6722d8298ff6)) - Product Management vs. Project Management in Software Development Summary: The essence of a product manager lies in more than just managing backlogs in tools like JIRA, as that task is akin to operating Google Docs which developers utilize daily but isn't their primary role. A product owner's role in the delivery process lacks the necessity for a dedicated position, with senior engineers often capable of fulfilling it competently. In contrast, empowered product managers and feature team product managers play roles encompassing project management tasks beyond backlog administration. The distinction clarifies that project management, while vital, does not equate to product management. Many companies with feature team product managers also employ numerous project managers, emphasizing the distinct functions of each role in software development. Transcript: Speaker 1 What they learned in a CSBO or a PSBO class was how to manage a backlog in JIRA, which to me is very analogous to learning how to operate, you know, Google Docs. Of course, that's not the job. That's something we do every day, but it's not the job. Just any more than, yeah, developers are in JIRA every day. Does that mean that's their job? Of course not. Their job is to build. So yeah, this is this is what a product manager contributes. And really the distinction, if you if you want to draw, think about it on a spectrum, a product owner is in one extreme. And honestly, that is a role in a delivery process. That has no business being a dedicated person really doesn't. And most teams I know the senior engineer could do it better anyway. Second, on the other side of the spectrum is what we're talking about an empowered product manager. And then a feature team product manager is somewhere in between there. They do more than administer the backlog. They do a lot of project management. And don't get me wrong, project management is important, but it is not product management. And furthermore, in almost every company I see with feature team product managers, they have a boatload of project managers anyway. ([Time 0:27:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/682ae400-1baf-4286-8a1c-a552acb441b5)) - Quality Advice in Product Communities Summary: In product communities, the issue lies in the abundance of well-meaning individuals offering advice based on their experiences in less effective companies, rather than best practices. This perpetuates a cycle of subpar guidance, making it hard to distinguish valuable insights. Despite good intentions, without monitoring or endorsing systems, the quality of advice shared in these communities can be questionable. Exceptions like Teresa Torres's book 'Continuous Discovery Habits' are praised, emphasizing the importance of learning from quality resources rather than personal experiences. Transcript: Speaker 1 And in fact, one of the most frustrating things for me is community. One of the things that's great about community, you have one of the biggest communities today. I mean, but there's a lot of these communities out there in the product world, product sub communities. And the one I love about them is you pretty much everybody you meet genuinely wants to help. You know, really everybody. The problem is somebody posts a question happens many times every day. And the majority of the well-meaning people jump in with what they learn at their crappy company. And I'm looking at that and the person is, Oh, thank you very much. No, I know what to do. And I'm going, Oh, no, there goes another one. You know, that is just it becomes self-propagating. And like, what are you going to do? Is somebody going to try to mock, you know, police these boards, thousands and thousands of them, you know, like a Lenny endorsed person or a Marty endorsed person. I don't want to do that. You probably don't want to do that. It's a recipe for a disaster, you know. So this, it there are so many reasons it propagates most of the books I see. I'm asked to review a lot of the books. I love it when it's an exception. And it's like, wow, that's a good book. Teresa Torres's book continuous discovery habits, good book, try to get everybody to read that. But but that's the exception. And most of the time, people are, are honestly describing what they learn. Not really what good companies do. So it's very difficult because these are not bad people. They're they're well meaning. ([Time 0:35:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6b2659be-190d-4aa0-9f8e-2af6bb5bbfa2)) - Navigating Communities and Advice Summary: Communities can be both frustrating and beneficial due to the overwhelming desire to help, but the advice given may not necessarily be valuable as it often reflects individuals' experiences rather than best practices. The challenge lies in distinguishing between well-meaning but potentially unhelpful advice and seeking valuable insights from trusted sources or exceptional resources. Transcript: Speaker 1 And in fact, one of the most frustrating things for me is community. One of the things that's great about community, you have one of the biggest communities today. I mean, but there's a lot of these communities out there in the product world, product sub communities. And the one I love about them is you pretty much everybody you meet genuinely wants to help. You know, really everybody. The problem is somebody posts a question happens many times every day. And the majority of the well-meaning people jump in with what they learn at their crappy company. And I'm looking at that and the person is, Oh, thank you very much. No, I know what to do. And I'm going, Oh, no, there goes another one. You know, that is just it becomes self-propagating. And like, what are you going to do? Is somebody going to try to mock, you know, police these boards, thousands and thousands of them, you know, like a Lenny endorsed person or a Marty endorsed person. I don't want to do that. You probably don't want to do that. It's a recipe for a disaster, you know. So this, it there are so many reasons it propagates most of the books I see. I'm asked to review a lot of the books. I love it when it's an exception. And it's like, wow, that's a good book. Teresa Torres's book continuous discovery habits, good book, try to get everybody to read that. But but that's the exception. And most of the time, people are, are honestly describing what they learn. Not really what good companies do. So it's very difficult because these are not bad people. They're they're well meaning. Speaker 2 You have any advice for somebody asking questions, getting answers and having a sense of, should I listen to these people? ([Time 0:35:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/24c847b6-07ca-42f7-9d26-c486499cc02e)) - Critical Thinking and Research for Decision Making Summary: To navigate through the process of asking questions and receiving answers, it is crucial to develop critical thinking skills. One must evaluate and judge the information received, especially when making career decisions. Researching about the direct manager and their background, including the companies they worked for and the products they dealt with, is essential. This research enables individuals to make informed decisions and take ownership of their career development. Transcript: Speaker 2 You have any advice for somebody asking questions, getting answers and having a sense of, should I listen to these people? Speaker 1 You know, it's very much this exists in the whole world, right? Buy or beware. You have to use your judgment. You have to think probably the most important skill for product people. And I know this sounds awful, but is really learning how to think critically. And that that involves literally evaluating. I know I talk to people all the time when I help them for their interviewing. I say, look, the most important thing, you need to do some research on the manager that will be your direct manager. Do some background research. Go look at where they worked. It's all on LinkedIn. Check out those companies. Check out that product. Make sure you are prepared there because that's what really matters. Not so much the company, but who's going to coach you? So there there's a lot that people can do that to sort of prepare themselves, arm themselves, take more ownership of their career. ([Time 0:37:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d236f549-d313-4180-978e-3048854d1a00)) - Diverse Perceptions of Work Methods Summary: The speaker reflects on how people from different companies have contrasting opinions on work methodologies. While some cannot relate to discussions on unique work practices, others are content with how their company operates. The speaker acknowledges the frustration that can arise from these differing perspectives as they have personally experienced being in a corporate bubble assuming everyone works similarly. Transcript: Speaker 2 What's interesting, I think you run. I'm sure you run into this and I'll just share something that I thought of. So before, while I was at Airbnb, I was reading your stuff and was like, who who works like this? Like he's talking about all these companies that are working in this strange way of just being given a roadmap and like, no way. Like this is not a thing. What is he writing about? And it's because I was working at a company that does things well. And I know you disagree with where things have gotten. But anyway, so I imagine many people listening to this are like, there's no, like, I don't believe this is how a lot of companies work. What are you talking about? And then I also imagine there's a large percentage of people that work at a feature factory and there's like, no, it's fine. It's not, it's not actually the way you're describing. So I bet this is quite frustrating for you. Speaker 1 Yeah, I've experienced that because I spent most of my career in that same bubble. And I was so surprised to find that people didn't work the way we did. I remember when it was too, because I was a developer at the time for developer tools. And I was building tools assuming that people were building like we built. ([Time 0:38:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9ac8dc89-2a20-4f7d-b719-d23e05c5921a)) - Breaking out of the Silicon Valley Bubble Summary: The speaker recounts their realization of living in a Silicon Valley bubble, assuming everyone built products the same way as they did. A visit to Walmart's headquarters opened their eyes to different working styles and equipment. This experience inspired them to create the Silicon Valley Product Group to spread methods and tools beyond Silicon Valley. The speaker acknowledges the diversity in working methods worldwide and questions the necessity of adhering to feature factory models in companies, suggesting that it might be acceptable in certain B2B sales-driven contexts. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah, I've experienced that because I spent most of my career in that same bubble. And I was so surprised to find that people didn't work the way we did. I remember when it was too, because I was a developer at the time for developer tools. And I was building tools assuming that people were building like we built. And then I was sent out, I remember, because one of the most high opening visits was my very first visit to Walmart's headquarters. And they were doing things so differently. They had, you know, just very different way of working, very different equipment, just everything. And it was a wake up call. It was like, you know what, I'm living in a bubble. Silicon Valley is not like the most of the world here. And of course, I realized that why not why don't companies in Arkansas and India and everywhere else have the access to the same methods and tools and techniques. And so that sort of became the inspiration for, you know, Silicon Valley product group was to spread those things. But I've had that exact conversation. I remember as you're saying it, the first time Shri Ashto, she told me the same thing. He was asking me, because he had known me. And I'm like, I know you're right about this stuff, but I really can't believe people are doing this. Right. And I'm like, Shri Ash, I wish it wasn't true. But you know, he doesn't doubt it today. Speaker 2 Yeah, because he's doing a lot of that work now too. I'm curious what you if it's okay for people to be on a feature team and just stick with it and be happy. There's actually this LinkedIn post today by this PM, the way where the like Ben Eris, who talks about how if there's like a B2B sales driven company, maybe it's okay for it to be feature Factory where people know exactly what you need to build to build these things. It's fine. We don't need you to inform our outcomes. Thoughts on that? Is it ever okay to just be like, it's fine. ([Time 0:38:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/60e902ed-1626-4ab1-91da-21e655b31480)) - The Importance of Continuous Innovation in B2B Software Development Summary: Continuous innovation is crucial in B2B software development to avoid stagnation and ensure quality outcomes. While sticking to a feature team and being content may seem acceptable, it often leads to subpar results. The notion of a 'feature factory' where the focus is solely on building without considering the broader outcomes can result in poor software quality. Successful B2B software companies prioritize innovation and outcomes to distinguish themselves in the market. Transcript: Speaker 2 Yeah, because he's doing a lot of that work now too. I'm curious what you if it's okay for people to be on a feature team and just stick with it and be happy. There's actually this LinkedIn post today by this PM, the way where the like Ben Eris, who talks about how if there's like a B2B sales driven company, maybe it's okay for it to be feature Factory where people know exactly what you need to build to build these things. It's fine. We don't need you to inform our outcomes. Thoughts on that? Is it ever okay to just be like, it's fine. Speaker 1 Well, my first answer is this is not an accident why most B2B software is such crap. It is horrible. And of course, the ones that really stand out, they usually are not this way. ([Time 0:40:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/04ad6966-7133-4168-8582-d2c04aa372c2)) - Focus on Product over Sales in B2B Software Development Summary: The prevalence of poor quality B2B software is often due to companies being sales-driven rather than product-focused. While some successful companies like Oracle are sales-driven, their products are not well-liked. Transitioning from a sales-driven model to a product-driven model can greatly improve product quality. Many sales-driven companies have CEOs who are not product-oriented, leading to subpar products. Without a shift in focus from sales to product, these companies are unlikely to create successful products in the long term. Transcript: Speaker 1 Well, my first answer is this is not an accident why most B2B software is such crap. It is horrible. And of course, the ones that really stand out, they usually are not this way. So sales driven product, I don't know if I mean, don't get me wrong, there's companies like Oracle that are massively valuable driven with sales driven product. But you know, Oracle, do you really want to be Oracle? If you want to be SAP, that's I mean, does anybody like those products out there? I don't know. I don't, I don't, not sure I've ever met anybody that didn't hate those products. So I know I'd say that's just bad product. Now, I would argue that some of my favorite examples, in fact, in the new book, we highlighted a classic sales driven financial services company moving to the product model and how we Dramatically improve things for the sales organization. So, I mean, there's a bigger reason I think so many sales companies, sales driven companies exist is that most of the time in those companies, the CEOs are not product people. And that's why they run that way. And until and unless the CEO decides this is not very good, usually because some good product company comes along and takes away their customers, that's probably not going to change. Speaker 2 Got it. So your feedback there essentially is sure you can operate this way. You're not actually going to build a great product in long term. You're going to run into personal companies. ([Time 0:40:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d05175ff-7649-40e9-afe8-dd50bc668d05)) - Empowered Product Team vs. Feature Team Summary: Operating by prioritizing empowered product teams over feature teams is crucial for building a great product in the long term and ensuring success. An empowered product team can accomplish everything a feature team can, and more. It is essential to care about customer feedback and constantly strive to improve the product for the benefit of the customers and the business. Hiring individuals who genuinely care about customers and improving their lives is key, while those who do not prioritize this may not be the best fit for the business. Transcript: Speaker 2 Got it. So your feedback there essentially is sure you can operate this way. You're not actually going to build a great product in long term. You're going to run into personal companies. Speaker 1 The other thing I'd argue, Lenny, is an empowered product team can do everything a feature can team can do and more. So I feel I find it very sad whenever, and once in a while, I do hear somebody say, well, why isn't it good enough to be a feature team? I mean, how do you answer that really? To me, it's like, why are you in this business? Do you really not care what your customers think about your product? Seriously? I know I would never hire you if I had any say, but because that's one of the first things we want, right? We want people to genuinely care about our customers and about our business and making lives better for them. So I don't have a lot of sympathy for those people. I mean, if they want, I do know that there's plenty of resources for them. So they're fine. It's the people that really want to do better than that. ([Time 0:42:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/eb4dc724-d50e-4f03-922f-d3fdbb7755ff)) - Product Companies and Product Strategy Summary: In good product companies, the product strategy is defined by product leaders, not the product teams. Top-down approach in product companies is different than giving a team a roadmap of features. There is a common misconception that product teams define product strategy, when in reality, it is the responsibility of product leaders. Despite personal opinions about Meta, Zuck is acknowledged as very skilled in product strategy. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah. So first of all, I would argue what he described is exactly what I see in good product companies. Exactly. But we don't frame it as top-down. Top-down is really mean something very different. In fact, handing a team a roadmap of features, that's very top-down. You know, another very common misunderstanding, which comes again, a lot of the agile coaches, they have misguided so many organizations. But product teams don't do product strategy. Product leaders do product strategy. They need to do the product strategy. So you need, and look, I'm not the biggest fan of Meta, but Zuck is very good at product. Very good. That's sort of the problem in the world. ([Time 0:45:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e13ef87f-c706-4cfc-9386-4a307124b7c8)) - Empowerment Through Strategic Product Leadership Summary: Effective product companies operate with product leaders shaping strategic decisions while empowering product teams with the autonomy and support to execute. Top-down approaches, such as handing out feature roadmaps, contrast with this model. A common misconception is that product teams define product strategy, whereas it is the responsibility of product leaders. Successful organizations like Meta excel in product strategy, making crucial decisions and guiding focus areas, while delegating implementation to capable and cross-functional product teams. True empowerment lies in providing teams with strategic direction and autonomy within a structured framework, not in allowing them to independently decide on priorities, which could lead to chaos. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah. So first of all, I would argue what he described is exactly what I see in good product companies. Exactly. But we don't frame it as top-down. Top-down is really mean something very different. In fact, handing a team a roadmap of features, that's very top-down. You know, another very common misunderstanding, which comes again, a lot of the agile coaches, they have misguided so many organizations. But product teams don't do product strategy. Product leaders do product strategy. They need to do the product strategy. So you need, and look, I'm not the biggest fan of Meta, but Zuck is very good at product. Very good. That's sort of the problem in the world. He's so good at it. But that is the job, is to make these strategic decisions, the focus decisions, the bets you're going to place. But then, in a good organization, you give those bets to the teams. And you really do give them latitude to figure it out. And honestly, it's been a while since I worked with Facebook at the time. But they had very good teams, very good product teams, serious cross-functional, serious engineers, serious product managers and designers. And they could solve very hard problems. And that is what made them good. So that's, I don't frame that as top them. I frame that as product leaders doing their job and product teams doing their job. It's a very common misunderstanding that many people have about what empowerment even means. Empowerment does not mean you set up this product team and they go decide what to work on. No, that would just be anarchy, right? ([Time 0:45:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/aead9185-f7de-492c-80ea-f0a7c5886ae8)) - Optimization vs. Discovery in Product Development Summary: There is a distinction between optimization and discovery in product development. Many teams focus on optimization by conducting low-risk experiments, like A/B tests to improve minor features. This approach is not actual product discovery but merely refining existing features. Some teams resort to optimization due to constraints, while others are hesitant to explore beyond it. The speaker suggests that many companies transitioning to be more innovative tend to follow this optimization path rather than true product development. Transcript: Speaker 1 I think he's right in general, but there's a really important nuance. Many teams that aren't very good yet, they do exactly what he described. He describes it as gross hacking. I describe it as optimization. All they're doing is these low risk simple experiments. They live behind the A.B. Test of just doing like we're going to change the call to action here and maybe more people will register that kind of test. Should they do that? Absolutely. Is that product really? Not really. That's not discovery. That's optimization. Now, in many companies, they do that because they're given a roadmap of all the features. So all they can really fit in are these little optimization tests. But in others, they're scared to do anything else. They literally don't want to break it. And so I find that situation that he described in many companies that need to transform. So I would argue what he's probably seeing mostly is a team that's learning how to go from a feature team to a product team. ([Time 0:47:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b7922aa3-c5a1-4092-823d-1d6b20c2a1cf)) - Evolve Your Skills to Stay Relevant in the Future Job Market Summary: With the advancement of technology, roles such as backlog administrators and feature team project managers are becoming less valuable as they can be easily automated or supported with tools. To remain relevant in the future job market, individuals need to upskill to become empowered product managers with a focus on value and viability. Designers at the top of the chain will be crucial as the importance of viability grows in the era of advanced technology like JAT GPT or Gen AI. Transcript: Speaker 1 And I think that is happening. I mean, more on the engineering side right now and also on the design side, but I fully expect it will happen. Like I said at the beginning, I don't know when really because that timing is hard question. But this is another one of my arguments to people of why you need to up level your skills. If you are fundamentally a backlog administrator, good luck protecting that because already people are doing that. You know, it's only a matter of time before that becomes pretty well supported. So that is not a good job prospect. Now, then we can talk about a feature team project manager. There's very little that's going on in there that is truly, you know, value at. Most of these are administrative kinds of things that can be done at least significantly with help. So I don't feel I wouldn't feel confident if I was a feature team product manager that I could keep doing this for any amount of years at least. Now, for an empowered product manager, if your responsibility is value and viability, if you boil it down, that's kind of the real challenge left with JAT GPT or Gen AI is viability becomes Even more important question. There's some very hard things left. So designers, I think the real product designers at the top of the chain, they're going to be incredibly important. ([Time 0:52:39](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a110bb84-e96c-4351-bedb-10db121980e1)) - The Importance of Product Managers in Ensuring Viability Summary: Product managers play a crucial role in ensuring the viability of a product, especially in the context of emerging technologies like JAT GPT or Gen AI. As responsibilities boil down to focusing on value and viability, product managers are faced with challenging decisions. The shift towards prioritizing viability over features emphasizes the significance of product designers and tech leads in product development. Discussions around the implications of probabilistic software versus deterministic software underscore the complex decisions product managers have to navigate. Transcript: Speaker 1 Most of these are administrative kinds of things that can be done at least significantly with help. So I don't feel I wouldn't feel confident if I was a feature team product manager that I could keep doing this for any amount of years at least. Now, for an empowered product manager, if your responsibility is value and viability, if you boil it down, that's kind of the real challenge left with JAT GPT or Gen AI is viability becomes Even more important question. There's some very hard things left. So designers, I think the real product designers at the top of the chain, they're going to be incredibly important. And of course, tech leads are going to be incredibly important more than ever. But for product manager, especially with viability, there are some I've been on so many of these calls where we've been talking about the implications of probabilistic software versus Deterministic software. ([Time 0:53:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b5c34aa7-20a2-441b-87d9-686e9bc291a1)) - The Increasing Role of Product Managers in Ensuring Viability and Value Summary: Product managers now face more responsibility in terms of ensuring product viability and value, especially with the advancements in technology like JAT GPT or Gen AI. The focus is on balancing the customer value with the business viability, which involves dealing with complex issues related to probabilistic and deterministic software, legal and ethical considerations. Product managers need to collaborate closely with designers and tech leads to address these challenges effectively. Transcript: Speaker 1 Most of these are administrative kinds of things that can be done at least significantly with help. So I don't feel I wouldn't feel confident if I was a feature team product manager that I could keep doing this for any amount of years at least. Now, for an empowered product manager, if your responsibility is value and viability, if you boil it down, that's kind of the real challenge left with JAT GPT or Gen AI is viability becomes Even more important question. There's some very hard things left. So designers, I think the real product designers at the top of the chain, they're going to be incredibly important. And of course, tech leads are going to be incredibly important more than ever. But for product manager, especially with viability, there are some I've been on so many of these calls where we've been talking about the implications of probabilistic software versus Deterministic software. And how what is okay, like from a lawyers are weighing in already with the legal perspective, but also ethical perspective. And just like if this is mission critical, is this something that we could be okay with having a probabilistic answer? We don't know trying to figure that out. So what is that really? That's a viability and a valued question. So a lot more is landing squarely on the product manager than I think in general in the past. Speaker 2 You talk about viability, just so people know what you mean when you say that what's like the one's and definition of what viability means. Speaker 1 So value means for the customer, viability means for your business. So that means it works for your business. You can sell it, market it. ([Time 0:53:26](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c810cbe5-7888-4e8a-b5c8-c70cb56e77ae)) - Success through Principles in a Product Operating Model Summary: Successful companies live by principles like embracing experimentation, ensuring everything is instrumented, and following product strategies. A product operating model involves deciding what to work on, solving problems effectively through product discovery, and building, testing, and deploying products reliably to customers. Transcript: Speaker 1 Because I really, most of the time when I see a successful company, they are living these principles. You know, principles like you have to experiment. If you you have to embrace experimentation, if you don't do that, most of this is not possible. Or you have to make sure that everything you release is instrumented so that we can prove the outcome stuff like that. That there's a million different methodologies and frameworks and tools and processes. But what matters is those principles. And so that's what we mean by that product operating model. There's at a high level, we talk about it is how you decide what you're going to work on. That's what how you decide which problems to solve. That's what most companies do in annual planning. Well, but it's basically the product strategy. Right. That's what your meta friend was describing that the leaders do. That's their job. The second is how do they solve problems? Do they have the skills to do product discovery like we're talking about? How to do to actually come up with good solutions that work for the customer and work for the business? That's the second big dimension of the product model. And the third big dimension is how do they actually build test and deploy product to their customers? Do they do it in a way that that is reliable, that is ([Time 1:04:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5dd90d8e-c1af-4b3a-b56f-5bef7fd4dcde)) - Three key dimensions of a product model Summary: Deciding which problems to solve forms the basis of a product strategy, along with solving problems effectively using product discovery and creating solutions that benefit both customers and the business. Additionally, building, testing, and deploying products reliably and in a demonstrable manner is crucial. These three dimensions encompass the core of a product model, which also includes essential competencies often lacking in companies. Transcript: Speaker 1 That's what how you decide which problems to solve. That's what most companies do in annual planning. Well, but it's basically the product strategy. Right. That's what your meta friend was describing that the leaders do. That's their job. The second is how do they solve problems? Do they have the skills to do product discovery like we're talking about? How to do to actually come up with good solutions that work for the customer and work for the business? That's the second big dimension of the product model. And the third big dimension is how do they actually build test and deploy product to their customers? Do they do it in a way that that is reliable, that is demonstrable where you can show that this generates the outcomes that you need? That's those are the three big areas. And then there's there's a number of competencies. Yeah, there's four new competencies that most companies don't have. And so what makes it tricky is they have people with those titles, but they don't have people with those jobs. The one we've been talking about is product manager. Speaker 2 Well, it would be more interesting to share. He said there's 20 attributes of a power product team, 20 principles. I'm so curious what these are. I know we don't have time to go through them all. ([Time 1:05:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2c96e352-ac8b-4ac4-b674-af670b2db364)) - Essential Competencies of a Power Product Team Summary: A power product team comprises four essential competencies: a serious product manager with strong leadership skills, a real product designer with expertise in service design, interaction design, visual design, and user research, a competent tech lead, and an effective product leader capable of coaching the team and defining a comprehensive product strategy. Transcript: Speaker 2 Well, it would be more interesting to share. He said there's 20 attributes of a power product team, 20 principles. I'm so curious what these are. I know we don't have time to go through them all. Can either share a few of those you shared experimentation as one or these four the way you just mentioned. I'm just curious with you. Speaker 1 Well, I can share as much as you want, but the four competencies are product manager. Again, we're talking a serious product manager here, not a product owner, not a feature team product manager. Product manager, real product designer, service design, interaction design, visual design, user research, real product designer, a real tech lead, and then a real product leader, A manager of product design engineering that is that knows how to coach their people and knows how to do a real product strategy, which is what we were talking about. So those are the four competencies, new competencies. ([Time 1:06:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3cbe8a92-f146-4500-b599-3099ef66b9af)) - The Four Essential Competencies of a Product Manager Summary: The four crucial competencies of a product manager are real product design encompassing service, interaction, and visual design, user research, a genuine tech lead, and a proficient product leader capable of coaching individuals and executing a sound product strategy. These competencies are relatively new for most companies, building on the traditional triad by adding a product leader to ensure effective team leadership. It is pivotal to have both the teams and leadership functioning efficiently for successful outcomes. Transcript: Speaker 1 Well, I can share as much as you want, but the four competencies are product manager. Again, we're talking a serious product manager here, not a product owner, not a feature team product manager. Product manager, real product designer, service design, interaction design, visual design, user research, real product designer, a real tech lead, and then a real product leader, A manager of product design engineering that is that knows how to coach their people and knows how to do a real product strategy, which is what we were talking about. So those are the four competencies, new competencies. For most companies, those are new, meaning they might have people with those names, but they don't have those roles institutionalized. Speaker 2 It's interesting you're building on the classic triad with this leader above. It's like the stool with something on the stool or something or putting up the stool. Speaker 1 And that is the triad. That's where it came from. The word triad came from those three. We didn't invent that. Right. Speaker 2 But I think the product leader is a really interesting addition there. You can't just have this team off to the side without a product leader ever seeing that work. Speaker 1 That's so true. Because one of the things I really learned with Inspire was that it wasn't enough to have the teams do their job. They needed leadership to do their job. So it is both. ([Time 1:06:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d9fc7a7d-f452-4bc4-9dab-779ce6b5e2d1)) - Batching Releases for Effective Product Management Summary: Releasing products monthly or quarterly allows better customer service, rapid learning, and quality improvement. Batching releases for marketing purposes is common in companies like Shopify and salesforce.com, ensuring releases are already live and tested before messaging. It's essential to align marketing releases with actual product releases to avoid confusion and ensure effectiveness in product management. Transcript: Speaker 1 You have to realize in most of the rest of the world, they release monthly or mostly quarterly. Think about that quarterly releases. Think about you cannot take care of your customers. You cannot learn at the pace you need to. And by the way, quality is going to be terrible in that model. Speaker 2 I don't want to go on this tangent necessarily, but I know in some cases, like a quarterly release like Shopify is an example. They have like seasonal releases like the winter launch and the summer launch. Salesforce.com has a big, but they don't confuse the actual releasing by the teams with the marketing releases. Speaker 1 So it's very normal. And I think wise to batch, because look, most teams, most product teams are releasing on the order of 20 times per day. You're going to do a marketing release 20 times a day. That would be like useless. So it makes sense to have messaging on a periodic basis, but good companies, by the time they message it, it's live. It's been coming out. We may have released some things dark as you know, but we've got it in production solid. We've proven each thing probably with an A.B. Test. Speaker 2 Yeah, everybody means actually in that same model. Most of the stuff they announced every couple of times a year is already out or in an experiment to most people. One thing I wanted to clarify, so you call this the product operating model. There's also the throw product ops, which you touched on a little bit. Any thoughts on product ops? We've had a few guests here talking about it. ([Time 1:10:09](https://share.snipd.com/snip/2927a1ed-6692-417d-952e-84c22f84cadd)) - The Role of Product Ops in the Product Operating Model Summary: Product ops are integrated into the product operating model through user research and data analysts, brought together under a product ops leader. This combination has existed for over 20 years to support qualitative and quantitative decision-making. Some companies mistakenly focus on process and governance, a red flag, while others creatively seek ways to support product managers. Transcript: Speaker 1 Now, can you use product ops in the product operating model? Absolutely. If you're using one of the definitions that are part of the model. So for example, the heart of product ops in the good companies I know is user research and data analysts. And the only difference is they're now brought together in under one product ops leader. That's all. That is the same. How long has that been with us, Lenny? More than 20 years. Team companies have had user research teams and have had data analyst teams to help you make decisions qualitatively and help you make teams quantitatively. So that's not new at all, but it is good. And I think there's a there is some amount of value about bringing that in. Some companies, of course, they interpret and define product ops very differently. A lot of them, unfortunately, think of it, they focus on the whole phrase of process and governance. That's like a huge red flag. And I try to tell people if that's what you see run, don't walk away from that. The other thing that's going on in a lot of companies, it is amazing to me how creative companies can be to try to find a way to justify giving product managers assistance. ([Time 1:12:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8343e87e-0e09-428a-a149-9780e2d572ee)) - Avoiding Red Flags in Product Management Summary: Identifying red flags in product management such as justifying assistance for product managers and having both product managers and product owners is highlighted. It is advised to avoid companies with such practices and run away from these situations. Transcript: Speaker 1 That's like a huge red flag. And I try to tell people if that's what you see run, don't walk away from that. The other thing that's going on in a lot of companies, it is amazing to me how creative companies can be to try to find a way to justify giving product managers assistance. Because you know, the product manager says too much work, which is really ironic to me because they're usually feature teams that are saying this. And I'm like, it's not even enough for your job. But anyway, they're like too much work. And so they're like, well, we need help. And so for a while, they would all have these little associate product managers. And then a lot of companies, they have, oh, we also have product owners. Product manager and product owner makes no sense. Huge anti pattern. Today, a lot of companies use the same excuse, but its product manager has product ops people to do the dirty work. No. ([Time 1:13:08](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a3963c44-9dbf-448e-b185-a08f92f85227)) - The Value of Product Ops and User Research in High Leverage Groups Summary: Product ops and user research teams are valuable because they are small high leverage groups that can support multiple teams effectively. They are essential in companies where product leaders are not performing their duties adequately and try to shift responsibilities to product ops teams. Transcript: Speaker 2 I've changed my mind on product ops. One reason is because because I also was like, why do I, I just want to, I don't need another person in the loop on everything I'm doing. I just want to have, I don't know why I would do that, even though I have endless work and I have working crazy hours. But I think one of the great things about product ops people that I talk to is there's not many of them. They're like, you need one often to do a ton and to help a lot of different teams. So it's not like a team that just grows like crazy. Speaker 1 That's what I like. Same with user research, by the way. And you had a very good guest on that I think tried to make that point as well. A small high leverage group. So it works for data analysts and works for user research where they are helping the teams do the work they need to do. But that's where it really depends what they're doing. I will tell you, I've seen too many companies where the product leaders are not doing their job. So what they do is they hire product ops to try to do their job. They're like, they're the ones now responsible for educating the product managers. That's just not good. ([Time 1:14:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/80ce9ea2-853b-498d-9441-871703ecd3ab)) - Founders and Product Managers Summary: Many startup founders are initially hesitant to hire product managers, thinking it will slow them down. However, eventually, they often realize the value of having a product manager and find them indispensable. The advice is to not hire product managers too soon, especially if their role is misunderstood and they are utilized as project managers. The founder should primarily focus on ensuring the value and viability of the product. Transcript: Speaker 2 I have just a few more questions before we get to our very exciting lighting round. Actually, maybe just one more question, we'll see where this goes. So I mentioned this earlier that a lot of startup founders are just like, I do not meet product managers. I am not going to hire them ever. Or maybe I'll wait till I have hundreds of engineers. But then I find many of them change their mind, bringing them PM and they're like, Oh, wow, this is amazing. Why didn't I do this earlier? This person exactly is exactly what I needed. And these are guest I've had on the podcast that were like, we don't EPMs. And then they get one and they're like, okay, I see this is great. Do you have any advice for founders that are in this boat of just like, I don't want product managers, they're going to screw us up, they're going to slow us down. Speaker 1 Yeah, you need advice for this. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm one of the people that tries to discourage them from hiring product managers too soon. Because a lot of them make the mistake of hiring them too soon. Now realize what we're talking about here, again, the whole discussion we've had, this is another other layer too. I'm talking about in a real product manager. If they're using them as project manager, which a lot of times they are, well, I would tell them they're overpaying, but okay, you can get some help for project management. That's not a good use of the CEOs, tough. But if they're a real product manager and they're worried about value and viability, that is the founders job. So the founder should be doing that and needs to be doing that. ([Time 1:15:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0bc68e1c-8f55-485a-bf9d-3dda1d4a7353)) - Hiring Real Product Managers at the Right Time Summary: Hiring product managers too soon can be a mistake as founders should be focusing on understanding and delivering value and viability. If product managers are used as project managers, it's an overpayment. Bringing in a real product manager too early can lead to conflict and too many decision-makers in the early stages. It is essential for founders to understand real product management before considering hiring product managers to avoid mismanagement and conflicts. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm one of the people that tries to discourage them from hiring product managers too soon. Because a lot of them make the mistake of hiring them too soon. Now realize what we're talking about here, again, the whole discussion we've had, this is another other layer too. I'm talking about in a real product manager. If they're using them as project manager, which a lot of times they are, well, I would tell them they're overpaying, but okay, you can get some help for project management. That's not a good use of the CEOs, tough. But if they're a real product manager and they're worried about value and viability, that is the founders job. So the founder should be doing that and needs to be doing that. And it usually causes conflict if they bring in a real product manager too soon. It's too many cooks in the kitchen. You need to reach a certain scale before it helps you to have other people responsible for value and viability. That all assumes that they understand real product management, right? Otherwise, it's going to lead to very different symptoms. ([Time 1:15:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd1cb970-c1c8-4238-9822-e2648d219bd4)) - Hiring Product Managers at the Right Time Summary: The speaker advises against hiring a real product manager too soon in a startup. The founder should be primarily focused on ensuring the product's value and viability. Bringing in a product manager prematurely can lead to conflict and inefficiency. It is suggested to wait until after achieving product-market fit to hire a product manager when scaling and expanding into new products and markets. It is recommended that founders take on the role of the product person until the startup reaches a certain scale, typically around 20 to 25 engineers. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm one of the people that tries to discourage them from hiring product managers too soon. Because a lot of them make the mistake of hiring them too soon. Now realize what we're talking about here, again, the whole discussion we've had, this is another other layer too. I'm talking about in a real product manager. If they're using them as project manager, which a lot of times they are, well, I would tell them they're overpaying, but okay, you can get some help for project management. That's not a good use of the CEOs, tough. But if they're a real product manager and they're worried about value and viability, that is the founders job. So the founder should be doing that and needs to be doing that. And it usually causes conflict if they bring in a real product manager too soon. It's too many cooks in the kitchen. You need to reach a certain scale before it helps you to have other people responsible for value and viability. That all assumes that they understand real product management, right? Otherwise, it's going to lead to very different symptoms. Speaker 2 So I think one piece of advice here is after product market fit is a better time to hire product manager. Otherwise, they're just kind of between you and the product and that slows everything down. Right? Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, remember usually as soon as you get product market fit, you're working on it for other products and other markets. And so it's an ongoing thing. But while it's small, you know, it usually is most useful just to look at the number of engineers at a certain number of engineers, usually like 20 to 25. It's a lot better if the founder is the product person for that. Awesome. Speaker 2 I was going to ask you if you have a heuristic for engineers. And so thank you for preempting that. That's essentially all I had to chat about, Marty. ([Time 1:15:53](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd8654be-a72e-4795-b736-30c7545a87aa)) - Insights from a Conversation Summary: The speaker mentions the journey of an author in writing a book and their lack of interest in movies or TV shows. They avoid revealing their favorite interview questions but emphasize the importance of candidates understanding the role of a product manager. The speaker values originality in responses and dislikes cliché answers. They also inquire about favorite products to gauge the candidate's interests. Transcript: Speaker 2 I've been reading about his book writing process as he was writing it over the many years. And it was just quite a journey he went on to make that book happen. Yeah. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed? Speaker 1 You know, Lenny, you couldn't ask that to a worse person because I know I watch almost nothing. So not a good one for that. Speaker 2 Great. That's I think that's often for the best. Do you have a favorite interview question that you either use yourself or find useful when interviewing folks, product managers, especially? Speaker 1 Well, given how much interviewing I do, I stopped giving out my real favorite questions because they became online. But I do have a go to question that I pretty much start with everybody in that. I want to know if they can even define the job of a product manager. Speaker 2 What do you find in the answer? And what do you look for? Is it just how close they are to your version of a product? Speaker 1 I just want to if they give me the same old, you know, I can tell where they learned from their answer. That's all. They don't have to give my answer. They just shouldn't give the old feature team answer. That's all. Speaker 2 Give a favorite product that you recently discovered. They really love whether it's software or something physical, something around the house. ([Time 1:18:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/da52a4af-b6ff-4293-914e-8ac3a6086604))