# Leveraging Mentors to Uplevel Your Career | Jules Walter  ## Metadata - Author: [[Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career]] - Full Title: Leveraging Mentors to Uplevel Your Career | Jules Walter - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/6363841e-21e6-4458-8e0d-22ff0406fb53 ## Highlights - Episode AI notes 1. Engaging in deliberate practice and mock interviews enhances interview skills. 2. Focusing on driving outcomes as proof of skill improvement is a powerful approach to enhancing skills. 3. Setting specific outcomes as goals and seeking guidance from mentors can lead to continuous learning and skill improvement. 4. Mentors are willing to help and sharing best practices is essential for improvement in areas like strategy, execution, and product sense. 5. Observing and learning from experts in different skills is a powerful way to improve one's own abilities. 6. Learning significantly occurs through iterations and observing the process at a company with great product management. 7. Working at a world-class company offers access to smart individuals for advice and observation, learning opportunities, and enhanced future job prospects. 8. Improving communication skills can be achieved through studying resources like Minto's pyramid principles, seeking feedback, and identifying patterns in feedback for personal improvement. 9. Emotional intelligence (EQ) development requires ongoing effort and practice over years, similar to building muscles. 10. Continuous improvement involves mastering skills within a timeframe and deciding whether to advance further or pivot to another skill at a similar level. 11. Receiving subjective and honest feedback can provide valuable insights for personal development. 12. Focusing on strengths rather than fixing weaknesses can lead to breakthroughs in personal and professional growth. 13. Identifying effective mentors who excel in areas where improvement is sought and possess effective communication skills is crucial for career growth. ([Time 0:00:00](https://share.snipd.com/episode-takeaways/64c57f6c-b429-409f-b4ca-511364154a7a)) - Deliberate practice and mock interviews enhance interview skills Summary: To improve interview skills, it is crucial to engage in deliberate practice by conducting numerous mock interviews. Often, individuals overlook the importance of actual mock interviews and focus on theoretical preparation. Deliberate practice involves practicing with individuals skilled in interviewing, which accelerates the learning process. Even without expert guidance, going from theoretical preparation to conducting mock interviews with peers significantly improves interview abilities. Engaging in multiple mock interviews is recommended to enhance skills, as it helps individuals advance to a higher competency level. Additionally, mastering interview skills can be challenging and stressful for many individuals. Transcript: Speaker 2 And the second set is EQ, right? Is that where you're going? Cool. So maybe just one quick thread I want to pull on is this interviewing skill. That's really interesting. Your point here is you're not. And I think you're going to get to this of just how to get better at these skills. And you mentioned one of the best ways is to be surrounded by amazing people who can help you get better at these skills. Yeah. But you won't get there if you can't actually get into the company like company like Slack. Is there something you found to be useful in building these interview skills? And when you say interview, it's being interviewed, not interviewing other people, right? Like passing these interview tests. So yeah, I guess what have you found has been most helpful in helping you become a better interviewee? Speaker 1 When people tell me, Hey, I'm going to interview at this company. First question I ask is how many mock interviews have you done? And the answer typically is zero. It's oh, I read a bunch of stuff, you know, I practiced in my head, but I'm like, how many actual mock interviews have you done? And I would recommend people to do dozens of those mock interviews. Now, the other thing about practice is it's always better if you do deliberate practice. So if you mock interview with somebody who's actually good at interviewing, then you'll get better faster. But even if you don't do that, just going from zero marks to practicing in your head to actually doing mocks with peers and others is going to get you to another level. And the other thing I'll say is interviewing can be quite traumatic and difficult for a lot of people. ([Time 0:14:49](https://share.snipd.com/snip/39ba6f21-dd15-45fe-9e88-c0add27a0547)) - Driving Outcomes to Develop Skills Effectively Summary: Focusing on driving outcomes as proof of skill improvement is a powerful approach to enhancing skills. This method involves identifying a specific outcome that reflects mastery in a skill. By using this approach, individuals can effectively develop and enhance their skills, especially when learning something new or trying to improve in a particular area. Transcript: Speaker 2 Linear is the default tool of choice among startups, and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Vercel, Retool, and Cash App. See for yourself why product teams describe using linear as magical. Is it linear.app slash Lenny to try linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade. That's linear.app slash Lenny. I love these stories, and this is a good segue to start talking a bit about not just what skills to focus on, but how to actually get better at these things and identify these patterns in Yourself. There's like a bunch of skills we just named. So let's also talk about where you think you start as a PM as you're starting off as a PM which skills to focus on first, second, third. So let me just ask this broad question. We've talked about all these different skills PM should have. What have you found to be most effective broadly at building these skills in your career? Speaker 1 I will share my approach. It might not work for everyone. And later when we talk about like strengths and weaknesses, you might see why that works for me. So what I do specifically is when I'm trying to learn something new, I try to think about what is an outcome that I could drive. And if I drive this outcome, it will be proof that I'm better at this thing. So if we go back to this story of like when I joined Slack, I didn't know anything literally anything about growth. ([Time 0:29:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/64bb8fb9-5640-427b-b689-080537aff486)) - Driving Success Through Outcome-Driven Learning Summary: The approach involves setting a specific outcome as a goal to prove improvement in a new skill or area. By working backwards from the desired outcome, the individual asks pertinent questions, conducts targeted research to refine those questions, and seeks advice from experts in the field to achieve success. This method was exemplified by the speaker's experience with driving activation at Slack by setting clear goals, asking the right questions, and seeking guidance from industry leaders like Facebook. Transcript: Speaker 1 I will share my approach. It might not work for everyone. And later when we talk about like strengths and weaknesses, you might see why that works for me. So what I do specifically is when I'm trying to learn something new, I try to think about what is an outcome that I could drive. And if I drive this outcome, it will be proof that I'm better at this thing. So if we go back to this story of like when I joined Slack, I didn't know anything literally anything about growth. And I was told myself, I hope they don't fire me. But then the outcome I wanted is within six months, I wanted to sheep enough experiments that were successful that drove activation by the CX percent. So that's like very concrete. So then once I had this outcome, I worked backwards to figure out how am I going to do that. So one of the things we can talk about later when we talk about strength is that for me, I'm really good at asking questions. So what I do then is I start asking questions like, okay, I'm trying to drive activation for Slack. What are some frameworks that I should use to drive activation? What are best practices? Like what are examples? So I have a sense of the kind of question that if I were to answer them, I'd be able to drive the outcome. And then what I do is I read a little bit, not a lot about the topic, just to make sure I'm asking the right questions so that then I refine my questions. And then I find the best people in the field and I just go talk to them. And that's where we'll talk later about the mentor part, the mentorship part. So in the case of activation, I was like, okay, what's the company that define growth at the time, Facebook? ([Time 0:30:24](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7e616aba-8fe7-4fb5-aaf6-41cf12700bdf)) - Creating a Forcing Function and Leveraging Mentors for Continuous Learning Summary: The speaker describes a structured approach to learning and problem-solving by first understanding the issue, identifying frameworks, seeking input from experts like user researchers and data analysts, implementing solutions, evaluating results, and then looping back to mentors for feedback. This process not only drives outcomes but also improves skills over time. Two key takeaways are creating a forcing function to learn by setting goals and relying on mentors and experts for guidance rather than trying to figure everything out on your own. Transcript: Speaker 1 I know so Adriel to start an extent. I then learn, okay, here are frameworks to use for growth. For example, understand, identify, execute, plan a lot more of your time understanding why people aren't staying on Slack versus anything else. So then I had pointers. And once I have the pointers, then I try to go through the thing. I'm like, okay, now let me, I call the user researcher, hey, can we do research on like people who are signing our Slack, you know, data analyst, let's look at data, what correlates with Activation, you know, those sort of things. And then I after I go to Rolu, why actually see results, whether they're good or bad, I go back to the mentor. And I'm like, hey, I did this, it was actually successful. Thanks a lot. Now I'm thinking about this other problem. You know, I'm like, rolling, and that's how I rinse repeat. And over time, I drive the outcome. And I also know I'm getting better at this thing by, by working with the experts. Speaker 2 There's a few interesting takeaways there. One is that you kind of create a forcing function for yourself to learn a thing. It's like, now I'm going to learn this thing. Let's create a goal that I my ass is on the line to hit. And then that's going to force me to go figure this out. And then two, it's interesting how often you come back to mentors and other people around you helping you out, which is really get a reminder. You don't have to figure things out for yourself. There's people out there that know these things, and they're happy to help. ([Time 0:32:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7acddaea-bf42-43f1-8c49-961d8c6a8953)) - Mentors are willing to help and sharing best practices is essential for improvement Summary: Mentors are generally happy to help individuals who seek their guidance, as people are often eager to share their knowledge and expertise. To improve in areas like strategy, execution, and product sense, individuals can proactively seek out best practices from successful examples. By analyzing artifacts such as memos or presentations from experienced individuals, one can reverse engineer their strategies, identify unanswered questions, and learn from the patterns observed. Transcript: Speaker 2 That's probably one of the most interesting things I've learned about mentors. And you're touching on this that people want to help. They're happy to help if people come ask, right? Unless they're just like dumb questions or they're just overwhelmed, people are generally very happy to help. People are always worried, like, why would they spend any time trying to help me with this random thing? It's usually opposite, they're happy to help. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Speaker 2 Coming back to the EQ and IQ buckets. Are there other examples of ways you've learned to improve, say, like strategy, execution, product sense, things like that? Speaker 1 Whether you have a mentor or not, there's other things you kind of have to do. So for me, for example, one thing I do is I try to identify what's the best practice for something. So for example, I say strategy, right? There was a phase where I got feedback, hey, it's better at strategy. So then I'm like, okay, well, can you help me understand what are people you've had this company that was like a while back? Or you think, how about a great job at strategy? Or what are examples of artifacts? So then I get these artifacts, and I reverse engineering them. So I try to think, okay, what are the questions they answer? Maybe I'm not answering all these questions. How do they do it? And you start seeing the patterns, like this person did it in a memo, this person did it in a day. ([Time 0:35:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4fc296fe-a77c-436a-bf3c-2b564564d5e1)) - Learning from Observing Experts Summary: Observing and learning from experts in different skills is a powerful way to improve one's own abilities. By attending meetings or presentations of skilled individuals, and reflecting on their strategies, communication, and execution, one can gain valuable insights and improve their own performance. It is essential to break down and analyze why certain individuals excel in specific areas to truly understand and learn from their expertise. Transcript: Speaker 1 Like, so for execution, it would be things like me attending another PM's meeting. Oh, I heard this person is amazing at executing. Let me just see how they run a meeting. And then you're like, whoa, thanks. We didn't notice. Or somebody is great at communicating. And this, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, did you send this email? It's great. Let me save it. I'd have like dogs of like, where I save templates or things. And a lot of the, the reason I think people don't learn through Osmosis that way is because one is you not at a company where you can see great artifacts sometimes. That's why I mentioned like, if you can get a better company, do that. The other thing too is even if you see the greatness around you, some people don't try to break it down to understand why is this one great and not that one. So I actually do spend a lot of time every week reflecting like, oh, I saw these dogs that were great, or I saw this presentation on this person gave. Like I sometimes crash like presentation of its people PM's give to like executives just to see how they handle like questions or these sort of things. So a lot of it is just spending time observing as well. Speaker 2 I love this advice. It's so powerful. Just like who is amazing at this skill. And let me just go watch them and learn from them. Yeah. Something that you touched on here is, and I talk about this a bunch, that ([Time 0:36:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0fd3971a-c3b7-4182-8210-9bb3d013c8f2)) - Learning Through Iterations and Observation at a Company with Great Product Management Summary: Learning significantly occurs through the iterations and observing the process rather than just observing the final product. Being able to witness the development and elimination of various versions provides valuable insights. At a company with exceptional product management, observing the process, providing feedback, and understanding the thought process behind decision-making is crucial. The opportunity to witness the behind-the-scenes operations, access valuable resources, and interact with intelligent colleagues enhances learning and professional development. Additionally, being associated with a renowned company not only offers learning opportunities but also boosts future job prospects through networking and enhancing interview skills. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah. And then the other thing I'll say too is a lot of learning happens to the iterations and not by seeing the final product. So, you know, we all see these products. I like the iPhone and like name your favorite product, but you don't know like what versions they tried and sort of eliminated. And that's the benefit you also get at a company that has great product management. So I actually sometimes tell the PM like, hey, don't just show me the one you just did. When are you going to do your next strategy? Can I join you then? I just want to sit and like watch you see right down the outline and just understand your thought process. Or I want to see when you're going to write your next exact update and understand like, how are you going to go and you see them go to these iterations, you see them do things like get feedback That you didn't know they were getting all this feedback from. So seeing the backstage is also really helpful. Speaker 2 It's interesting. Just as you're talking and reflecting on how many benefits there are to working at a world-class company, you are surrounded by really smart people who you can talk to and ask for advice And watch how they operate. You have access to really incredible documents and artifacts that you can learn from. Also, just the logo in your resume is really powerful for future job opportunities, which then comes back to the interview skills that you talked about and how important it is to be good At that to get into a company like that. Speaker 1 Yeah, totally. ([Time 0:39:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ac0e0069-55a4-44f6-aefd-677a6b3c4ddb)) - Benefits of Working at a World-Class Company and Developing Communication Skills Summary: Working at a world-class company offers benefits such as access to smart individuals for advice and observation, learning from exceptional documents and artifacts, and enhancing future job opportunities. Improving communication skills can be achieved by studying resources like Minto's pyramid principles, saving exemplary emails for reference, actively seeking feedback, and identifying patterns in feedback for personal improvement. Transcript: Speaker 2 It's interesting. Just as you're talking and reflecting on how many benefits there are to working at a world-class company, you are surrounded by really smart people who you can talk to and ask for advice And watch how they operate. You have access to really incredible documents and artifacts that you can learn from. Also, just the logo in your resume is really powerful for future job opportunities, which then comes back to the interview skills that you talked about and how important it is to be good At that to get into a company like that. Speaker 1 Yeah, totally. Speaker 2 Interesting. Okay. What about on EQ? Any examples of how you learned some of those skills that you talked about communication or leadership or management or anything along with the lines? Speaker 1 Yeah. So on the communication side, I read some stuff like Minto's pyramid principles, extremely helpful. And I know you had an article on that. I mentioned also that whenever I see a great email, exact update or whatever, I literally save it in this and a special folder. I love that. I also, by the way, always ask for feedback more than I think many people. And I try to see patterns in feedback. So for me, one thing I've observed is I tend to write long sentences coming from a you know, Haitian, French background. But then I see that because I've seen enough feedback that are about it. ([Time 0:39:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ba117b80-9dc0-486f-b22d-d8542e7f3956)) - Continuous Improvement through Focus and Practice Summary: Emotional intelligence (EQ) development is a continuous and slow process compared to intellectual intelligence (IQ). While IQ can show progress in a matter of months, EQ requires ongoing effort and practice over years like building muscles. To improve EQ, one should focus on learning skills one at a time, dedicating a specific period to mastering each skill through consistent practice and application. Transcript: Speaker 1 And then one thing I'll say also about the EQ, it was the most frustrating learning for me. You know, like for the IQ stuff, within six months, sometimes three months, I can see like clear progress. But you see enough, like documents, you know, you see five, six of them, you start seeing like 80% of the patterns, right? But then with the EQ stuff, it's things I've been working on for years, you know, I am better at them, but I still feel I'm continuing to work on those things. And a lot of it is like, it's, you know, lifting weights or building muscles, you know, you have to do it every day or every week. And if you stop doing it, over time, you have your fee again. So that's something that people need to acknowledge you, like give yourself time. And also learn these skills one at a time, ideally. Speaker 2 Yeah, interesting. Can you talk a bit more about that learning skills one time? Is your approach just like, here's the thing I'm working on the next six months, I'm going to focus on that? Speaker 1 Yeah, so my approach is typically, I'll say I'm giving myself, I don't know, three months, six months, it depends on what I'm, you know, what's the delta I want to see in my behavior for This thing. And I just go all in on that scale. So let's say I want to learn strategy, right? So I'll be like, okay, I'm in myself, let's say six months. So every week, I'm going to do something related to learning strategy. It's going to be maybe I read the strategy for another feature or product at my company. ([Time 0:41:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e4576231-e3b2-43ef-ad17-df2ac129c57d)) - Continuous Improvement through Skill Development Summary: Continuous improvement involves mastering a skill within a timeframe, then deciding whether to advance it further or pivot to another skill at a similar level. An example is the skill of listening, which includes active listening for problem-solving, creating space for others to express themselves, and making the speaker feel heard. By continuously refining and diversifying skills like listening, personal development and better interpersonal relationships can be achieved. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. So it's more that within six months, you're clearly better. Now you can invest another six months to get to the next level. Or you could say now I'm going to switch focus to another skill and get that one to that for a similar level. Speaker 2 Is there a skill you're working on right now? Speaker 1 Always working on something. One I can call out is listening. So one thing about the stuff to, by the way, is you hear these words. And depending on how familiar you are, you understand or don't understand what actually means. So when I say listening, I'm good at seeking information to solve a problem. So if you come to me and you like, hey, Jules, I have this problem, I will know what to listen for and what to ask you. Hey, Lenny, can you tell me a B and then I hope you saw the problem. However, there's also different listening patterns, one of which is you just create space for someone. It's not like you're seeking a particular information, just keep them space to tell you what they want to tell you. And then the other side of it too is you held that person feel heard. You know, hey, I feel like you actually understand me and you've heard what I'm saying. So that's the part I am working on. Speaker 2 You mentioned the Macheary episode. I imagine you've been listening to that because that is a lot of great advice. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. So it's those kinds of things, right? And then he talked about like, you know, saying back to people like what you heard, you know, asking for more information, etc. Awesome. ([Time 0:44:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dc14869b-2a39-49b9-b402-d84004653f57)) - Value of Honest and Subjective Feedback Summary: Receiving subjective and honest feedback can provide valuable insights that help individuals improve their skills. Such feedback, although sometimes difficult to hear, can shed light on blind spots and areas for growth that may go unnoticed otherwise. Trusted individuals offering sincere feedback based on their observations can highlight specific behaviors or communication styles that might be hindering professional progress. Being open to receiving this kind of feedback can lead to self-awareness and personal development. Transcript: Speaker 1 And it's like, Oh, I was so focused and listening to you intently that I could see now why I come across that way. But you could literally go your whole career. And then nobody ever says these things, right? And that's the kind of feedback that I personally find most helpful is like the subjective feedback. Because nobody will tell me those things. And, you know, when somebody I trust tell me, I'm like, Oh, or like, here's an example. I mentioned earlier, I'm good at asking questions. I had somebody ask like, tell me, Hey, sometimes when you ask questions, you sound more junior. And I was like, huh. And then I can see that because I asked the question like, play me like, Hey, why did you do this or how to do that? Instead of also saying where I'm coming from. Hey, I noticed this blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, I'm saying, instead of showing I have an understanding of the thing and then asking a follow up question, I just asked the question, Block you without context. And people are feel like, Hey, I'm asking very basic question. So that's the kind of feedback that I particularly value. Speaker 2 The feedback you're getting is pretty incredible. Like the stuff you shared about someone saying you come across as angry in a meeting, if you ask questions or Sam Jr. I don't know if I've ever gotten anyone to give me that brutal, Lee honest feedback. When those specific cases, what was it about these people that helped them give you this feedback? Is it what you talked about? You both trust with them over the years? Or is there some you did to get that kind of feedback? ([Time 0:48:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4fd951a6-865d-4ee5-bd6c-132ec99d5dfb)) - Doubling Down on Strengths Summary: Focusing on strengths rather than fixing weaknesses can lead to breakthroughs. By identifying what others see as strengths in oneself, even if they are overlooked, it is possible to capitalize on these abilities and maximize their potential. Recognizing and nurturing these strengths can lead to significant personal growth and professional success. Transcript: Speaker 1 For the strengths breakthroughs for me, a lot of it was talking to my mentor Lawrence, Lawrence scripture. And I organized this event for Black PMs at Pinterest where Lawrence was speaking. And we were talking about, hey, what should you talk about, etc. And I don't know how, but in the conversation, he talked about doubling down your strengths more than, you know, on fixing your weaknesses. And then he used me as an example. And then the fun part is he had this approach of how you actually find your strength. It's a very simple question where basically he's like, hey, why does something that a lot of people say you're good at? But you think it's not a big deal, you know, or it's not that important. And that's like the key. I would say that's what resonated with me. I was like, oh, a lot of people keep saying I'm really networky. I'm like semi introvert. So I'm like, I don't know, or I can't, or jeweled with everyone or people will tell me, Hey, you have you ask great questions. And I'm like, I asked basic question. And then I, he helped me understand actually, that's how you know, it's a strength. Now what you need to figure out is how do you get more out of that strength. An analogy, by the way, is imagine that you saw a fish and you're like, Hey, you're really good at swimming. And then the fish are like, Oh, that doesn't everybody's swim. And so that's the key. And I invite people to think about that question. You know, like what's something people keep telling you're good at, but you yourself don't think is a big deal. ([Time 0:51:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4e2bf54f-336b-49e5-b37e-0b1ac19ffbb1)) - Qualities and Strategies for Finding Effective Mentors Summary: The speaker emphasizes the importance of mentors in career growth, highlighting several individuals who influenced and guided them. They stress the significance of seeking mentors who excel in areas where improvement is sought and possess the ability to effectively communicate their expertise. The speaker advises listeners to identify individuals proficient in specific skills and capable of articulating and teaching those skills. They recommend actively seeking out potential mentors who demonstrate these key qualities to enhance career development. Transcript: Speaker 1 I've definitely had a large number of mentors over the years. Fun fact, when I came to B.I.A. Eight years ago, I didn't know anyone. It could go wild to sort of build those relationships. So I talked earlier about Bingo, like, how about sort of helped me figure out how to grow slack, even though he wasn't working outside, but helped me have the frameworks. I talked about Lawrence Ripscher. He helped me discover my strands and also how to lean into them. Aaron Seegg is another friend and mentor who brought me to Google, actually. And there's also Bradley Horitz, former VP of Google Photos. It also helped me in terms of how do you think about leadership and so on. Many other folks like Nikhil Singal, VP at meta, helped me with like PM career. So lots of mentors, for sure. Okay, that's a killer list. Two questions. Speaker 2 One, what do you look for in a mentor when you're trying to find someone to work with? And then two, just like, how do you actually find these people? Like most people listening, you're like, wow, I would love an amazing mentor to help me in my career. I don't know how to find one. What advice do you have for folks to finding a mentor? Speaker 1 But I look for two things. One is, are you good at one specific thing I'm trying to get better at? And then two is, are you good at explaining it? And those two, at least for me, they're important. I know people were really good at their roles, at their job and that, to the subject, but they they don't actually know how to do it. ([Time 0:55:35](https://share.snipd.com/snip/61793a4a-60a7-4140-849e-ea9e3ec6157b))